Longdrive format

[The_Power]

The format keeps evolving and I think the fact that at every stage now 50% win and 50% lose is a great step forward, the days of the 2 from 8 groups were brutal!

As was witnessed at the Worlds this year, with the current format it's possible to stand on the tee with no chance of progressing due to changing wind conditions. If we move to self contained groups of 2 from 4 there is the big plus that everyone hits under the same conditions, however, the drawback is this is a relatively small group size and you could end up with both Carl Wolter and Joe Miller in your group!

Perhaps the best compromise is to take the winner of one group of 4, the winner of the next group of 4, and then the 2 longest out of the remaining 6 hitters. That way if there is a wind reversal the 4 competitors on the tee still have something to play for.

Very interested to hear everyones opinions and see how this poll turns out.

 

[devilsadvocate]

Having watched, it was obvious that to make it fair for someone who may have spend $thousands and travelled thousands of miles you CANNOT have someone knock you out who is not on the tee with you!

The changeable winds appeared to turn a sport - that is run professionaly, with great competitors and a big prize fund into a lucky dip -

Just not the way it should happen

The LDA should def look at it and think, come on we cannot run this as a lottery - the weather was extreme but it happened and the event should be run with the assumption the weather is going to do this again!

I do not even see how the lda might debate this - they HAVE to make it fair - who is going to keep travelling and paying money if the guy that knocked  them out had a 15mph tail wind and they lost by 5 yards hitting into the wind!

Needs fixed

I say 2 from 4 as it should be as easy to follow as possible - constantly asking, is hitter x still in not good UNLESS the LDA sit the two WILDCARDS in a throne or something hoping they aint going to be dethroned - its gotta be easy to follow!

[AP]

I hope they never take 2 from 4 if they run the double elimination format. No offense. I think 2 wildcards is good. Hitters are so good these days that somewhat larger groups are necessary. If you do 2 from 4 you might as well do matchplay from the start.

Here is a short case study of players NOT advancing with 2 from 4:

group1 R1 Dan Beckman, Paul Wintherling R2 Ben Tuaone R3 and 4 Gabriel Caron Landry  R5 CJ Hellström and Dan Beckman R7 Bobby Bradley

Group 3 R1 Marc Andre Beland  R2 Mazza  R3 Hamrick R4 Mack

Infamous group 4 R2 Miller and Kearney  R3 Deason  R4 Crews  R5 Dawson  R6 Consavage  R7 Bennetts

Group 5 R1 Holden  R3 Williams  R4 Konyk

Group 6 R3 Nickerson   R6 Vilade  R7 Moose

Group 7 R1 Wolter and Pera  R3 Carlson 

Group 8 R1 Sheppard  R2 Merrill  R6 Gouws

R8 Consavage and Bradley  R9 Bullard and Bjelland  R11 Wolter and Hellström  R12 Reisbeck

Not many rounds it will affect but Wolter and Hellström have multiple times surviving as did Consavage and Beckman. If 2 WC then only Wolter in R11, Hellström in R5 and Consavage in R8 would be affected. As you can see the current system isn´t THAT far off the being fair. Doing 2 WC would be the most fair thing to do IMHO! Though the current Champ would probably disagree

One can always argue about the weather. This year in Group 4 wasn´t nearly as unfair as when Stacey and Baldwin got a desertstorm in their face in 09, being only 40-50y behind and after that round the rest of the day was cancelled. Weather will always be a part in double elimination. Matchplay is a different thing that takes that out but poses it´s own problems in fairness.

I think doing 2 from 4, though sounding very fair, would make which group you are in too important. Doing 2 from 4 you may as well do 1 from 2.

JMO

[bombinbrian]

I promised myself, I was not going to get into this, but.............

There is no format that is fair for everyone, every time they hit. Someone is going to get screwed no matter what. I have hit under probably 6 different formats at the DISTRICT/REGIONAL level and you know what, someone got screwed. Everybody needs to put on their big boy pants and realize that if you are out to make sure it is fair for all, and nobody gets screwed by the grid or the weather, we might as well treat it like tee ball. We won't keep score and EVERYBODY WINS,

I am all for growing the sport and making it better, but when everything is said and done, you can not keep changing to make sure it is fair for everyone. Until we hit in a vacuum tunnel where wind will not affect anything, and have a man made grid that is the same in every square inch, to eliminate hot spots and bad bounces, someone is going to get screwed.


 

[devilsadvocate]

I promised myself, I was not going to get into this, but.............

There is no format that is fair for everyone, every time they hit. Someone is going to get screwed no matter what. I have hit under probably 6 different formats at the DISTRICT/REGIONAL level and you know what, someone got screwed. Everybody needs to put on their big boy pants and realize that if you are out to make sure it is fair for all, and nobody gets screwed by the grid or the weather, we might as well treat it like tee ball. We won't keep score and EVERYBODY WINS,

I am all for growing the sport and making it better, but when everything is said and done, you can not keep changing to make sure it is fair for everyone. Until we hit in a vacuum tunnel where wind will not affect anything, and have a man made grid that is the same in every square inch, to eliminate hot spots and bad bounces, someone is going to get screwed.

 

Sounds like a pretty good porno, lots of people getting screwed

[The_Power]

Self contained groups of 4 with 2 winners and 2 losers is leading the poll at the moment, I will also say that double elimination does to some extent offset the "luck of the draw", which tends to be the big concern about this format. If you do get beat in a "group of death scenario" then your losers group should be a whole lot easier.   

[devilsadvocate]

luck of the draw?

you should expect to and want to hit with the best

Surley a group with Miller, Sadlowski and Wolter is a GREAT group!

You cannot win without beating everyone!

[The_Power]

Yes Miller, Sadlowski, and Wolter is a great group for the final 8

You don't want world champions eliminating each other early in the competition, and this is the danger with the 2 from 4 format.

[ukrainien]

hows about seeded players are directly into the last 32 - ie former champs high finishers the previous year or whatever the lda deems a seeded player to be - the rest of the field hit on the first 2 days in groups of whatever is fairest in double elimination styley to join the seeded guys in the last day.

 i think thats a good one , then your group of death scenario isnt happnin

id go with that - and also hold the event in July and have a windometer like in the 100m sprint

[captainamerica]

The two wild cards would essentially be saving one guy from getting wind screwed. You would end up taking 3 put of one group and only the winner out of the other. Still gives ONE guy a 25% chance vice 0%. Interesting ideas, and hopefully we can see one of these implemented in the future.

[Geekoman]

Yes Miller, Sadlowski, and Wolter is a great group for the final 8

You don't want world champions eliminating each other early in the competition, and this is the danger with the 2 from 4 format.

Good point Phil!

[Geekoman]

hows about seeded players are directly into the last 32 - ie former champs high finishers the previous year or whatever the lda deems a seeded player to be - the rest of the field hit on the first 2 days in groups of whatever is fairest in double elimination styley to join the seeded guys in the last day.

 i think thats a good one , then your group of death scenario isnt happnin

id go with that - and also hold the event in July and have a windometer like in the 100m sprint

Good point also, Dan!

[AArdvark]

Make the grid go from 65 yards wide at 300 yards, to 80 yards wide at 465 yards. (A slight V-shape)

Reduce each tee box width from 6 yards to 5 yards. Add 2 more tee boxes.

Make every group a 6 for 3 and call it a day.

VERY EXCITING for the fans and every group has the exact same wind conditions.

and boom goes the dynamite..........

[The_Power]

I like it AJ and yes I think 6 on the tee is possible with a few other format modifications.

The issues are going to be there are a lot of balls for the grid workers to handle, and with 6 slots the slot you get put in may be a factor.

So to compensate, have a 4 ball set in 2min followed by a 1min break for grid workers to verify numbers and competitors to change slots, 1 moves to 4, 2 moves to 5 and 3 moves to 6. Then you have another 4 ball set in 2min to complete the group.

I like two 4 ball sets rather than two 3 ball sets since the break is a disruption to your rhythm and the extra ball compensates.

We can afford to have a little more time on the tee since we are now getting through 6 competitors in one go.   

[GolfinCroc]

I have been lucky to have hit in many types of formats and the double elimination was better then single here is a combination of the formats I have hit under. Everybody hits 4 sets 4 on the tee, then field is seeded and broken into 4 groups then it is matchplay  both on the tee at the same time from there reducing the field down to final 16 for the TV rounds.  defending champion is number 1 seed. everybody hits at least 5 sets wind is not a factor because everyone qualifies for matchplay. TV rounds are best 2 out of 3 but they are 4 ball sets.

Scott McC

[devilsadvocate]

They aint going to change the grid so that is a pointless discussion!


The seeding thing makes perfect sense

Top 16 / get exempt past early rounds - then you do not have to worry about "Group of Death" scenario's

straight 4 on the tee with 2 OR  3 from 6 if possible.

Seems simple enough

No need for Wildcards either as it just complicates the issue

plain and simple - finish either top 2 or 3 in your group or go home, ok its not double elimination, but then why should it be? 

[The_Power]

ok its not double elimination, but then why should it be? 

Because double elimination is a stroke of genius from Art, no-one wants to travel all the way to Mesquite to go 6 balls and out

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here, the current format is still a great format, we are just seeing if we can tweak it slightly to take account of random wind conditions.

[KGPRES]

Make the grid go from 65 yards wide at 300 yards, to 80 yards wide at 465 yards. (A slight V-shape)

Reduce each tee box width from 6 yards to 5 yards. Add 2 more tee boxes.

Make every group a 6 for 3 and call it a day.

VERY EXCITING for the fans and every group has the exact same wind conditions.

and boom goes the dynamite..........

AJ, I think this is the best format. Groups of 4 are too small and run the risk of knocking out top hitters that are unfortunately grouped together early in the tournament.  Groups of 8 like we did at Worlds works very good when hitting 4 at a time, but not perfect.  6 hitters hitting at a time is the best, but not many grids can accommodate this format.  For those who hit in Ben Witters event many years ago, he did this format and it was killer.  The best ever in my opinion.  

Lance Reader  

[KenK2]

Make the grid go from 65 yards wide at 300 yards, to 80 yards wide at 465 yards. (A slight V-shape)

Reduce each tee box width from 6 yards to 5 yards. Add 2 more tee boxes.

Make every group a 6 for 3 and call it a day.

VERY EXCITING for the fans and every group has the exact same wind conditions.

and boom goes the dynamite..........

AJ, I agree, I like this format, it makes sense..  The only issue I have is 6 on the tee..  You worked the grid with 4 and how tough was it..?  
With some "advanced technology" in the works, do you think 6 would be the best?  

AJ, I think this is the best format. Groups of 4 are too small and run the risk of knocking out top hitters that are unfortunately grouped together early in the tournament.  Groups of 8 like we did at Worlds works very good when hitting 4 at a time, but not perfect.  6 hitters hitting at a time is the best, but not many grids can accommodate this format.  For those who hit in Ben Witters event many years ago, he did this format and it was killer.  The best ever in my opinion.  
Lance Reader  

I agree buddy..

Whoever said that the "Grid size is not going to change" is slighly wrong..  

[StevePratt]

Question:  Why aren't the competitors seeded from #1 to #128 like every other sport on the planet? Tennis, NCAA Basketball, and even the World Golf Matchplay works like this.  Seeds #1 through #8 shouldn't even be on the tee together until they reach the TV finals.

Then 4 for 2 wouldn't be as unattractive as you could only have 1 monster in your group.

Sure, odds are against this, but what if Sadlowski, Miller, and Gentry are all picked out of the 'hat'  randomly into the same starting 4?  Is random draw the best way to go?